The 100 mpg carb - Does it really exist?

[rookie]

Originally Posted by seattle smitty

By the way, does anyone else find the EGR system inherantly offensive? I have learned to accept, and even appreciate, most of the emissions systems on street cars, but for an old racer the very idea of PURPOSELY adulterating the fresh intake charge with exhaust gases really rubs me the wrong way!! (I probably have said this somewhere else, too. Old men repeat themselves because we figure nobody pays any attention to what we say . . . which is probably merited!!)

Based on the amount of head work and engine design done to eliminate revesion it is a little ironic, don't ya think.

[Brian P]

I remember the Popular Science article on that Fiesta, and I also remember that it used special pistons and combustion chamber shape, probably also a special camshaft. I think the idea with the combustion chamber was something like the May Fireball head. The water injection wasn't the only secret, but it was part of the picture.

I've always wondered what happened with that idea.

Mind you, the Mk1 Fiesta was a light car, which also helps.

I've probably got that issue of Popular Science somewhere, but finding it at this point would be quite the accomplishment ...

[KLR142]

David, this is a GREAT site you have started up, and I can't wait to read and learn more on it. I will definitely be sharing it with my friends who I deem smart enough to learn and possibly even contribute to it.

Greatly awaiting further knowledge to be given in the future,

[John Gervais]

David, first, thanks for everything you've done for us. I really enjoyed reading this article when it was recently published in Mini Magazine. I'd toyed with the idea of installing a water injection system in my 'warmed-up' 998cc mini, as I too can see the many benefits.

Think I'll ring that UK company and hear what they've got to offer...

[hsutton]

David, I'd like some unbiased thought about the HHO technology, that may or may not work. Lots of guys i know are calling it an outright scam but i'm not so sure they have all the facts. Go to water4gas.com and see what you think. The e-books are quite detailed and at a cost of only $97, one isn't risking much money. If it really works we might be able to really affect the price of gas and diesel at the retail level. T. Boone Pickens is building a "huge wind farm" in west Texas as a way of re-directing the focus of generating electricity away from natural gas in order to use that gas for other purposes. Alternative energy electric generating tecniques could make the U.S.A. energy independent in the not to distant future.

[seattle smitty]

Brian, the 1600cc Kent engine (pushrod four, also used for decades in Formula Ford racing) that Goodman built had pistons with less dish to get the high compression, and had a "burn slot" in the head, a little like one of Singh's grooves. The Kent head is more or less chamberless, being basically flat and using the dished piston as the combustion area. I believe this is termed a Heron head, and have heard it is also found on the V-12 Jaguar.

The Ford Fiesta that was sold in the USA from 1978-80 (which Brit Fiesta enthusiasts call the Mk1), got rather good fuel economy even in factory trim and lacking an overdrive gear, getting an EPA-rated 46mpg, highway. Dandy engine, pretty good car, crappy brakes, . . . but improvable, like everything else.

[Pinhead]

Originally Posted by hsutton

David, I'd like some unbiased thought about the HHO technology, that may or may not work. Lots of guys i know are calling it an outright scam but i'm not so sure they have all the facts. Go to water4gas.com and see what you think. The e-books are quite detailed and at a cost of only $97, one isn't risking much money. If it really works we might be able to really affect the price of gas and diesel at the retail level. T. Boone Pickens is building a "huge wind farm" in west Texas as a way of re-directing the focus of generating electricity away from natural gas in order to use that gas for other purposes. Alternative energy electric generating tecniques could make the U.S.A. energy independent in the not to distant future.

The $97 price tag is why many people call HHO tech a scam. You can get the information on how to build one of these systems freely on the web. Hydrogen Fuel, Over Unity, Free Energy and Zero Point Energy Research is a perfect example of free information.

[DavidVizard-GFN]

Sorry folks,

Have not looked at this thread for a long while because the planning of the fuel economy/green forum has sucked up a lot of time. Granted it's a little late but here is where I stand at the moment on the HHO deal and any other so called economy device.

Anytime there is a big fuel price crunch there is also a rush to sell the public 'economy devices'. For the most part they are rip offs or products thought up by ordinary, and basically honest people who really do not have the know how or technological background to even work on this sort of stuff in the first place. With that as a starting point it is hardly surprising that so much of the stuff that is brought market is less than functional. The result is any product that falls into the category of an economy device is often viewed much like ‘snake oils’ in the additive business. Because there is so much junk in each of these fields everything gets tarred with the same brush – and in most cases justifiably so. But every once in a while something comes along that is the real McCoy but suffers the same fate in terms of recognition as the genuine ‘snake oils’. This means there is a big onus on the manufacture of an economy device (or additive product) to prove as conclusively as is humanly possible, that the product does what is claimed of it. Sadly, for many business, the drive to make money overrides the desire to put out a top notch product.

Now to get to the point on this HHO stuff. I have only a vague idea what it is they are selling but here is my offer:-

I have almost a million readers every month and if they wish to hit those readers I will be happy, if they send me whatever it is they are selling, to review such. If I think it is based on sound engineering principles I will go one step further and, at their expense but with no strings attached, test said product under strict test conditions. If it proves to do what they say I will let the world know. If not -----

My experience over the years is that companies that have a flakey product avoid me like the plague (unless their PR person is totally stupid that is). In the last 15 years or so I have found that companies who search me out and will go the whole nine yards testing, and at their expense, almost always have a product that works. But these are rare. Here is something you guys can do – let this HHO company, whoever they are, know that I have done this post. If they avoid (like the plague) having me do a review then I guess we have an indication of which camp they are in.

And to wind up this post let me say that after a lot of thought on the subject of fuel economy and being green I have decided to drop most of my politically correct English approach and become, in the automotive tech world, the nearest thing to Bill O’Reilly of Fox’s news program ‘The Factor’. There is a lot that I feel needs to be straightened up here and a lot of what I have to point out won’t be to every ones liking but it will be to the point.

Odds are 10/1 on that no one from HHO contacts me!!!

[Pinhead]

Just curious, how would you test said device? Because WOT tests on a dyno would show no gains whatsoever. And, just like Singh Grooves, it's usually a combination of different tech's/changes in conjunction with re-tuning that makes the big MPG gains...

[Brian P]

Well, at a risk of speaking in someone else's place, if it were ME doing the testing, I'd find engine RPM and load settings that correspond to (say) 60, 80, and 100 km/h "road load" (i.e. part throttle), and measure BSFC at those operating points without the gizmo, then measure it again with the gizmo, then measure it again without the gizmo. If you really have sophisticated testing apparatus then you could use one or more of EPA's prescribed driving cycles on a dyno. But, that's just me.

A while back, on another website, we had someone touting an economy gizmo of some sort (I've forgotten what it was). That one got to the point of showing up at a dyno testing facility and the promoter got a chance to talk to everyone involved - none of the rest of us were about to stand up for any BS. There were some dyno equipment problems when the test was first attempted and we had to book it for another date. At that date ... no show.

I've also witnessed the tail end of a private dyno operator doing a test of an economy gizmo - but the methodology used was not valid. In that case, the dyno operator was (in effect) showing the promoter of the gizmo what he wanted to see, presumably in the interest of getting paid. "Independent test results" - Ya right.

I have my own opinion of those "HHO" or "Brown's gas" or other such systems. I'm thinking DV isn't going to get a response to his offer ...