Mass Produced Garbage

[Regal502]

Perhaps in today's global economy and fiercely competitive market place, I can somewhat understand-- or perhaps I need better insight.

There seems to be some great allegiance toward "Comp-Cams" and their products. Both on this forum and within several of the popular publications and their "build-ups"

Now if the reason is that the "global provider of mass produce garbage" (i.e. Comp Cams) provides the mass produced garbage (herein affectionately termed M.P.G.) to the publications (and build ups) for FREE- I guess when it comes down to brass tacks, you use what you have; especially when it's free. (though, I'd NEVER use garbage parts just because they were free)

But most of us racers/gear-heads/developers, whatever we want to call ourselves, in my observations, seem to be very much alike; we are all very analytic,(anal), pay much attention to detail and mostly seem to DEMAND THE BEST.

Now....... how one can possibly pick up a component from the aforementioned mass produced garbage manufacturer and feel the quality is "there"-- I'm lost. I'm beginning to think they put more time and effort into their fancy shiny box- than they do the parts inside.

Someone-- please--- enlighten me; or at least share your thoughts.

[automotivebreath]

Originally Posted by Regal502

...But most of us racers/gear-heads/developers, whatever we want to call
ourselves, in my observations, seem to be very much alike; we are all very
analytic,(anal), pay much attention to detail and mostly seem to DEMAND
THE BEST.

Now....... how one can possibly pick up a component from the aforementioned
mass produced garbage manufacturer and feel the quality is "there"-- I'm
lost. I'm beginning to think they put more time and effort into their fancy
shiny box- than they do the parts inside.

Someone-- please--- enlighten me; or at least share your thoughts.

Over the last twenty years I have seen the quality go up and down.
Some parts are great quality, normally at a premium price. Others
are pure garbage, sometimes appear to be a bargain (normally not).
It can be difficult to distinguish the difference, especially when the
quality is here today and gone tomorrow.

When we know a "once quality name brand" has gone to M.P.G.; the decision
is easy, we no longer buy from them. Unfortunately these companies are
able to stay afloat because so many people are uninformed. Perhaps we can
develop a quality control system where manufactures are forced to affix
a M.P.G. sticker on the shiny boxes of junk parts.

[Regal502]

Sounds like a great idea! But it'll probably be a cold day in hell before they ever would consider such a thing.
I make no qualms about my disinterest and utter dissatisfaction with the JUNK that the biggest leader of M.P.G. produces.... Comp Cams.

Cheers All!

[Ron Golden]

Quality control can be a large percentage of the manufacturing cost (especially if the quality is tested in) or a somewhat lesser percentage if the quality is built in and verified thru sample testing and customer feedback. Or.............you can produce a product, regardless of the quality, have a great advertising program, sell the hell out of your "widget, and reap the profits.

I think too many people lack the experience, expertise and knowledge to make the right decision and just believe the advertisement.

Ron

[DavidVizard-GFN]

Regal502/ Ron

I can see some passion here! Not wanting either of you guys to feel like the Lone Ranger I thought some of my own experiences would make you feel slightly less isolated.

I am limiting this mostly to just the last 12 years but that still is going to be far more supplier malfunctions than I would have wished for. These ‘malfunctions’ include my own engines and some I have helped out with for the purposes of a magazine article. But before we go there first I have to say that I don’t regard one mistake as necessarily a sign of things to come. I make mistakes and so does everybody else. It’s the repeated mistakes/ poor quality or whatever that are the things we need to guard against. But to make a start:

How about a block decked such that it was 0.018 lower one end than the other. This was particularly irksome as I was in a hurry to meet a copy date and tried to save time by not checking the machining. After detailing and painting the block and assembling in half the pistons and rods I realized there was a problem. Scratch one big Hot Rod story.

Same California based company a year or so later - block bored with 0.002 difference between the smallest and largest bore! I’m just waiting for a third from this company before I blow the whistle!

Still on the subject of blocks – fully prepped block with main housing 0.0004 too big (that was a hell of a job to fix on a Sunday!) A deck 0.010 lower than the other. Bores had clearance added when piston size already had clearance built in (as usual) result 0.010 piston to wall clearance on a HiPo street machine! Mains align honed with one cap reversed – did not notice this when pulling them off (it was about 1 am in the morning) Sure as hell did not fit too good when I tried assembling that cap the right way – the crank locked solid.

100% off shore produced crank – all rod journals oval two the three tenths oval and tapered up to 0.001. Had two 100% off shore produced cranks fail – nasty mess. Also two so called race rods used in a lot less than race applications.

Pistons – how about custom pistons that come out of the block 0.100 because they were too tall! (found that out Sat night and had to wait till Monday morning to rectify – race was Sunday) Pin bores too tight by over 0.001. Forgot circlip grooves. Oversize ring groove widths (seen that more than I would like).

Heads with the valve stem reamer cutting a polygon instead of a round hole – the grooves left are a great way for oil to be drawn down around the outside of the guides. You only find this out after the engine is on the dyno!

A valve forged with an internal flaw. The subsequent blow up was a sight to be seen. Took 3 days and two people to clean out the dyno cell and air exchange fans. Part of a rod was embedded in the dyno cell wall as a result of this 7000 rpm plus explosion!

A nitrous guru who made an error of judgment and grenaded (and I mean grenaded – parts were everywhere) my new motor – still I must be partly to blame as I should have seen this one coming!

Going back to my Mini Cooper days cams from the factory race dept were a nightmare. I would check ten cams end to end (and that takes cubic time) just to get one that was half way accurate. That is one reason for going with the aftermarket cams but even that proved not to be a 100% fail safe way to go.

Well known UK cam company (there are basically only two big ones so you have a 50% chance of guessing who) – I call them up and tell them I hear rumors that their quality is not up to scratch. They deny all and tell me my cam is being shipped that day. I receive the cam and much to my disappointment I can see (not just measure but see) the grinding errors in the form of flats on the lobes! I call and they tell me – “that’s a first”. I withdraw my support.

More valve train stuff - all from different suppliers. Lifters (which almost none of the big cam companies make themselves) with incorrect heat treatment (lasted about 2 mins) bowed pushrods - rocker bushings too small – incorrect heat treat on rocker lash adjusting screws ( kept breaking) - spring failure from cam ground with wheel out of balance.

All the problems I have had with cams – mostly for UK vehicles and from UK sources (and they are not universally bad just some are not on the ball as much as they could be) prompted me to get a Cam Doctor cam checking machine. This can not only measure to within 40 millionths linear but also to a few seconds of arc of angularity. When I first got this I could check cams more accurately than most cam companies other than the big five.

As a result of the acquisition of the Cam Doctor I have been able to home in on those companies that have shown the best consistency as far as profile accuracy and dynamics are concerned. Two of these companies are Crane and Comp so it comes as something of a surprise to hear Regal502 comments concerning Comp. Comps cam and valve train components are used in 60% of the cup car field and among those are some big time winners. These guys don’t go for price but performance and performance is usually tied closely with quality. Now this is not to say that over the past dozen years and hundreds of cams later that I have not had a problem with either of these companies. I have but they have never, with just one exception, been quality issues. Both companies have shipped me cams that should have gone to some other customer. Comp has twice shipped me duplicate orders. That may sound fun but repacking and returning the stuff is very time consuming when you do not have a shipping department - all I ever ship is a few sheets of paper and a CD! That’s the worst from Comp.

As for Crane they sent me a flat tappet cam which had no lobe taper so the lifter would not rotate. That’s instant death for a flat tappet valve train. A couple of days after I received the cam a Crane rep called me and told me they had found the batch of cams of which mine was one were faulty. They shipped me a new one the next day. Some engine builders used the cams and found out the hard way they were wrong. This, it seemed, was what alerted Crane too the problem. I heard from one of two engine builders concerned and they told me Crane stood behind their product and made everything right.

We should remember here that any time the boundary’s are pushed the chances of a screw up increase dramatically. Our sport is all about boundary pushing. Mistakes are almost inevitable. What I liked about Crane was that they were eager to set things right. I for one can work with a company that stands behind it’s product.

Now after all this typing I am getting to the point. Regal502 hardly seems like a guy that bleats over nothing so I feel bound to take his complaint very seriously. I for one cannot afford to be the recipient of whatever it was he experienced so we need to get to the bottom of it all.

Regal502 - can you private email me with details of the problems so I can better evaluate the situation. (and before I get swamped with other emails complaining about product remember I am real short on time as it is so don’t send any unless I ask). I will see what can be done to fix you apparent problem.

And Ron – try this. Call-email your guy at Howard’s and tell him he did not make me wait for my rods way back. You really should get the same courtesy.
DV

[Devious]

It is not just Comp Cams (I have had too many problems with ALL their stuff to list). I will stick to Crane or small custom cam grinders from now on.

Piper Cams (UK) seems to have more than a few issues with quality control. Not just on the lobes, but also on the cam to drive mounting surfaces.

I will not buy Dart blocks pre-machined ever again. They repeatedly say that their machining is top quality. I beg to differ. When a timing chain will not fit on a block, it IS a machining issue at their end. And they really don't care about the end user.

I will say that several piston manufacturers I have dealt with have made mistakes, but were eager to quickly remedy the situation.

On connecting rods, I have decided it is easier to buy from a couple of more expensive manufacturers than to take the time to correct or return a cheaper company's product. Even if it is just for peace of mind.

It is not about just making mistakes. It should also be about how a company does or does not remedy the situation, and their attitude towards the customer.

[rskrause]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who shop based on price, price, price and then complain about the quality. However, I do not buy that way and have seen too many major screwups when the denominator is small (as it is for me). Maybe doing it right costs so much that "they" realize they could never sell if the standards were as high as we "quality" oriented customers want? IOW, are we deluding oursleves about not shopping just for price? Would it be worth $2,000 instead of $1,000 for a set of rods with a 0.1 v. an 0.2% defect rate? Bottom line is check everything, no matter who makes it and pay with a credit card. If the part is not up to snuff and they won't fix it, have the CC company take it up with them and get your $$$ back, Problem is the time, hassle, and the difficulty of catching all the errors before collateral damage occurs.

Richard

[Ron Golden]

David, Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try sending another email and see what happens.

I agree that mistakes will happen and everything has to be checked for fit and finish. I also agree that you had better not shop on price alone or you will most certainly get bitten in the butt. However, explaining to the customer why his part is twice the price of the one he found in the magazine also takes time..... therefore money. Thankfully most of our customers are repeat customers and respect our judgement.

By the way, I've had good luck with Comp and Crane.

Ron